"Boom in the Moon" soundtrack

[Chris Seguin]

So I'm scratching my head over when the English dub for Buster Keaton's "El Moderno Barba Azul" was done. There seems to be some thinking that the English version was prepared for the video release in the 80s, but the musical score differs from that of the original Spanish version. Credit on "Boom in the Moon" goes to one Georges Tzipine, who seems to have been semi-prolific in the 30s through the 50s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Tzipine

Now here's the interesting thing: I was looking at a 1946 French reissue of Laurel & Hardy shorts, in a compilation entitles "Les Trois Mariages des Laurel et Hardy". Music by...Georges Tzipine! See frames, below.

Love the coincidence (and it's a pretty good score), but...anyone have any clue about any of this??

Chris

Boom in the Moon

tzipine2.jpg (31.3 KiB) Viewed 243672 times

[Richard M Roberts]

So I'm scratching my head over when the English dub for Buster Keaton's "El Moderno Barba Azul" was done. There seems to be some thinking that the English version was prepared for the video release in the 80s, but the musical score differs from that of the original Spanish version. Credit on "Boom in the Moon" goes to one Georges Tzipine, who seems to have been semi-prolific in the 30s through the 50s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Tzipine

Now here's the interesting thing: I was looking at a 1946 French reissue of Laurel & Hardy shorts, in a compilation entitles "Les Trois Mariages des Laurel et Hardy". Music by...Georges Tzipine! See frames, below.

Love the coincidence (and it's a pretty good score), but...anyone have any clue about any of this??

Chris

tzipine2.jpg

Well, I know for a fact that the english-language dubbing was done in the 80's. Have you perhaps thought that they couldn't clear the original music for some reason and utilized music by Tzipine instead. Georges Tzipine isn't spanish for Thomas J Valentino is it?

RICHARD M ROBERTS (So, are you going to ask about the new music for that video release of WAR ITLIAN STYLE as well?)

[Chris Seguin]

Thanks Richard; if I understand correctly it's certain topical references that tip off that BOOM IN THE MOON is an 80s creation...specifically some insert shots and the voice track. But the score is so well designed, and similar in tone to the original (music by Leo Cardona) that I'd have to assume Tzipine created a score for European release outside Mexico and Spain (but why??). And, if so, did the people responsible for the 80s dubbing have a dialogue-free music and effects track to work from?

All quite a mystery to me -- much like the English-language dubbing of ATOLL K. Who was responsible for that?? It still amazes me that Norbert Aping could unearth just about everything including the name of the doctor who examined Stan's prostate, but we still have no idea who, when or where that dubbing came from. (I imagine they died of embarrassment, or else they're just hiding.)

AND, to change the subject entirely... tell me about the music for WAR, ITALIAN STYLE! What's up with that? :)
(Sorry, my fairly tatty copy of WAR is minus the opening titles...)

[Richard M Roberts]

Thanks Richard; if I understand correctly it's certain topical references that tip off that BOOM IN THE MOON is an 80s creation...specifically some insert shots and the voice track. But the score is so well designed, and similar in tone to the original (music by Leo Cardona) that I'd have to assume Tzipine created a score for European release outside Mexico and Spain (but why??). And, if so, did the people responsible for the 80s dubbing have a dialogue-free music and effects track to work from

?

Most likely the reason for both BOOM ON THE MOON and WAR ITALIAN STYLE's new music has to do with the video releases themselves. From time to time, music rights for older motion pictures do not cover video or DVD( since they were not invented at the time the movies were made), and those rights have to be renegotiated. If they cannot be, then new music has to replace the old before the video can be released. This has happened more than once on music and some other rights that has kept films or television shows from being reissued at all or in their complete original form. With music, it happens with both outside music used in films and complete scores designed specifically for the film.

All quite a mystery to me -- much like the English-language dubbing of ATOLL K. Who was responsible for that?? It still amazes me that Norbert Aping could unearth just about everything including the name of the doctor who examined Stan's prostate, but we still have no idea who, when or where that dubbing came from. (I imagine they died of embarrassment, or else they're just hiding.)

I'm sure the dubbing was done during the film's original post-production, didn't they always intend this to be an international release? Is the dubbing the same for ROBINSON CRUSOELAND as it is for UTOPIA? They obviously had to have access to Laurel and Hardy's original voice tracks to be able to dub it all into english in the first place. The dubbing is no better or worse than most 50's english dubbing of foreign pictures.


RICHARD M ROBERTS

[Chris Seguin]

Interesting theory re: video/DVD releases of BOOM and WAR. I know TV shows like SCTV and WKRP were withheld from DVD release for years due to music rights issues, but can't think of any films that suffered a similar fate. (And isn't that how Republic regained rights to "It's A Wonderful Life"?) In the cases of SCTV and WKRP they just slapped in stock music (where's Thomas J. Valentino when you need him?), but in the case of BOOM it's a completely different score, which I'd still have to guess was created in the late 40s or early 50s, based on Tzipine's output (judging by IMDB it'd seem he didn't do a lot of film scores, but his last one is in 1960. He died in '87 so, who knows, maybe he cranked out one last effort!).

Richard, does your 16mm print of WAR have a credit for the score? And does the score on the 16mm print (which I assume is a TV print) differ from the original? Again, my really shoddy DVD-R lacks the opening titles, and the campaign book doesn't provide credits. Again, I really need to sit down and compare the two, side-by-side.

As for ATOLL K, despite Lois Laurel quoted her father as saying it was never supposed to be shown in the US, Laurel & Hardy themselves were quoted quite extensively in late 1951 about the upcoming US release. A 98-minute English dub of ATOLL K was created, which was later whittled down to ROBINSON CRUSOELAND in the UK and UTOPIA in the US. So while a US release was never cemented during the film's production, that was always the intent, and the dub track was created in 1951. It would seem that the dubbing was done in the US based on the American accents of the actors (and the belief that Paul Frees provided the voice of Antoine), rather than the UK, but no records have been found yet.

You're probably right about the dubbing being no better or worse than most 1950s products (or 1960s, getting back to WAR, ITALIAN STYLE), it's just remarkable to see the finesse with which the European dubs are created. ATOLL K actually plays much better in French and Italian, or even German! Btw, Norbert also set the record straight that even the Italian actors spoke French during production -- so it wasn't a case of three different cultures speaking their native tongues. So the Italian actors were dubbed into Italian by different voice actors!

Ciao e grazie!
Chris

[Richard M Roberts]

Interesting theory re: video/DVD releases of BOOM and WAR. I know TV shows like SCTV and WKRP were withheld from DVD release for years due to music rights issues, but can't think of any films that suffered a similar fate. (And isn't that how Republic regained rights to "It's A Wonderful Life"?) In the cases of SCTV and WKRP they just slapped in stock music (where's Thomas J. Valentino when you need him?), but in the case of BOOM it's a completely different score, which I'd still have to guess was created in the late 40s or early 50s, based on Tzipine's output (judging by IMDB it'd seem he didn't do a lot of film scores, but his last one is in 1960. He died in '87 so, who knows, maybe he cranked out one last effort!).

Richard, does your 16mm print of WAR have a credit for the score? And does the score on the 16mm print (which I assume is a TV print) differ from the original? Again, my really shoddy DVD-R lacks the opening titles, and the campaign book doesn't provide credits. Again, I really need to sit down and compare the two, side-by-side.

As for ATOLL K, despite Lois Laurel quoted her father as saying it was never supposed to be shown in the US, Laurel & Hardy themselves were quoted quite extensively in late 1951 about the upcoming US release. A 98-minute English dub of ATOLL K was created, which was later whittled down to ROBINSON CRUSOELAND in the UK and UTOPIA in the US. So while a US release was never cemented during the film's production, that was always the intent, and the dub track was created in 1951. It would seem that the dubbing was done in the US based on the American accents of the actors (and the belief that Paul Frees provided the voice of Antoine), rather than the UK, but no records have been found yet.

You're probably right about the dubbing being no better or worse than most 1950s products (or 1960s, getting back to WAR, ITALIAN STYLE), it's just remarkable to see the finesse with which the European dubs are created. ATOLL K actually plays much better in French and Italian, or even German! Btw, Norbert also set the record straight that even the Italian actors spoke French during production -- so it wasn't a case of three different cultures speaking their native tongues. So the Italian actors were dubbed into Italian by different voice actors!

Ciao e grazie!
Chris

The other consideration regarding BOOM ON THE THE MOON'S dubbing could have been that they didn't have separate music tracks left of the original score that they could mix and somebody had tracks on a Tzipine score for something else that was clearable and seemed to fit.

I'll have to listen a bit closer to Antoine's voice in ATOLL K, I've always been a good Paul Frees spotter and i don't recall spotting it there, but then again, I don't obsessively watch ATOLL K that often (although I still think it's a better film than much of their 40's product). but Frees would indeed indicate it as an American dub ( just as Peter Sellers voice would indicate it as a British dub job from the same period). But European dubbing, especially French and Italian, was always better because they pretty much looped everything in doing soundtracks,even in their own languages, very seldomly using live sound for anything. And if they had never intended an American release for ATOLL K, why would they have bothered to record live voice tracks for Laurel and Hardy in their own language (and I'm sure there's some english looped dialogue by the Boys as well, there always something that has to be looped on any production).

RICHARD M ROBERTS

[Chris Seguin]

The other consideration regarding BOOM ON THE THE MOON'S dubbing could have been that they didn't have separate music tracks left of the original score that they could mix and somebody had tracks on a Tzipine score for something else that was clearable and seemed to fit.

That might be the case, it'd certainly make sense if the film had only been released in Spanish speaking countries for 40 years. Has anyone seen evidence of it ever being released elsewhere? (Except for the one ad I've seen for it playing in Phoenix in 1947.) I'd really have to give the film another close look to really get a sense if it's a patchwork job.

I couldn't say for sure if it's Paul Frees in ATOLL; McCabe first mentioned it in his filmographies (so I guess it was actually Dick Bann?), placing Frees as narrator. But Scott MacGillivray is pretty convinced that Frees is Antoine. (Whoever it is, it's the best performance in the film.) I guess there's a slim possibility a US release was never 100% certain but they recorded Stan & Babe's live voice tracks for the UK release, but I'd find it hard to believe that Laurel would have gone into this thing NOT hoping that it could serve as their US comeback film.

(although I still think it's a better film than much of their 40's product).

Agreed, although I'd say ATOLL K is better than ALL of their 40's product!

Chris

[Richard M Roberts]

The other consideration regarding BOOM ON THE THE MOON'S dubbing could have been that they didn't have separate music tracks left of the original score that they could mix and somebody had tracks on a Tzipine score for something else that was clearable and seemed to fit.

That might be the case, it'd certainly make sense if the film had only been released in Spanish speaking countries for 40 years. Has anyone seen evidence of it ever being released elsewhere? (Except for the one ad I've seen for it playing in Phoenix in 1947.)

And it played in Phoenix only in Spanish.

I couldn't say for sure if it's Paul Frees in ATOLL; McCabe first mentioned it in his filmographies (so I guess it was actually Dick Bann?), placing Frees as narrator. But Scott MacGillivray is pretty convinced that Frees is Antoine. (Whoever it is, it's the best performance in the film.) I guess there's a slim possibility a US release was never 100% certain but they recorded Stan & Babe's live voice tracks for the UK release, but I'd find it hard to believe that Laurel would have gone into this thing NOT hoping that it could serve as their US comeback film.

(although I still think it's a better film than much of their 40's product).

Agreed, although I'd say ATOLL K is better than ALL of their 40's product!

I wouldn't say that necessarily, I like JITTERBUGS, THE BIG NOISE and THE BULLFIGHTERS as well.

RICHARD M ROBERTS

[Chris Seguin]

And it played in Phoenix only in Spanish.

Cool, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming, Richard.

I wouldn't say that necessarily, I like JITTERBUGS, THE BIG NOISE and THE BULLFIGHTERS as well.

I would! :) If Stan and Babe looked healthier, even as well as they look in the 1947 newsreel footage, and performed the material in ATOLL's first 40 minutes with the same enthusiasm they manage to bring to it despite their age and health, that alone would rank as classic Laurel & Hardy. They're "themselves" again, after sleepwalking through the Fox/MGM films. And to me, the scene where Stan inadvertently (if uncharacteristically) comments on Ollie's weight when discussing the liferaft (well, his concern is justifiable!), then reacts to Ollie's genuinely hurt feelings, demonstrates just how wonderful they are -- and what set them apart -- when they're at their best. Imagine Costello making a similar comment to Abbott. He'd get slapped and then they'd move on. What ATOLL K has that you find in none of the Fox/MGM films (and is pretty much missing from SAPS AT SEA too) is honest warmth. And I like the fact that in ATOLL, the other castaways actually like Stan & Ollie, and respect Ollie enough to accept him as president. There's a richness to the characters that we probably hadn't seen since the first 2 reels of BLOCK-HEADS.

Best thing about JITTERBUGS is that, for most of the film, they play characters other than "Stan & Ollie" -- that seems to bring out the best in them.

Chris

[Richard M Roberts]

I wouldn't say that necessarily, I like JITTERBUGS, THE BIG NOISE and THE BULLFIGHTERS as well.

I would! :) If Stan and Babe looked healthier, even as well as they look in the 1947 newsreel footage, and performed the material in ATOLL's first 40 minutes with the same enthusiasm they manage to bring to it despite their age and health, that alone would rank as classic Laurel & Hardy. They're "themselves" again, after sleepwalking through the Fox/MGM films. And to me, the scene where Stan inadvertently (if uncharacteristically) comments on Ollie's weight when discussing the liferaft (well, his concern is justifiable!), then reacts to Ollie's genuinely hurt feelings, demonstrates just how wonderful they are -- and what set them apart -- when they're at their best. Imagine Costello making a similar comment to Abbott. He'd get slapped and then they'd move on. What ATOLL K has that you find in none of the Fox/MGM films (and is pretty much missing from SAPS AT SEA too) is honest warmth. And I like the fact that in ATOLL, the other castaways actually like Stan & Ollie, and respect Ollie enough to accept him as president. There's a richness to the characters that we probably hadn't seen since the first 2 reels of BLOCK-HEADS.

Best thing about JITTERBUGS is that, for most of the film, they play characters other than "Stan & Ollie" -- that seems to bring out the best in them.

Chris

[/quote]

JITTERBUGS is interesting because of the different characterizations, but the plot is annoying. THE BIG NOISE, unlike what Everson snd the Medved's said, is probably the best of the Fox Films because they are pretty much their old selves, and they are the smartest and sanest characters in the film, and it has gag aequences that actually work. Same with BULLFIGHTERS. All these films have far more polish than UTOPIA and are easier for a general audience to swallow.

That said, I have also always loved the European relaxed feel of ATOLL K, and felt that we were indeed robbed of more films with an older Laurel and Hardy. They are even more comfortable with each other, and warmer. Hardy especially shows more of what is most likely his real life gentle charm. I always wished that Laurel and Hardy had made more 50's films in Europe,perhaps something like an alliance with Ealing, where they could have fit very well into 50's British adversity, maybe stretched their characterizations and took a few more chances (imagine the Boys as the Alec Guiness and Stanley Holloway characters in THE LAVENDER HILL MOB). We were lucky to have an older Buster Keaton finding so many ways to fit himself into 50's and 60's culture, it's a pity Stan and Ollie didn't get the same opportunity.

RICHARD M ROBERTS